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Hands Down, Lithium-Ion Batteries are Better than Gas ?

Discovy News -- A team of Swiss researchers has released conclusive data showing that the environmental impact of an electric vehicle is much less than previously thought.

As any EV advocate will tell you that electric vehicles are extremely green when fueled from renewable energy such as solar or wind power. And even those fueled from non-clean power sources, such as gas, oil and coal are less polluting than gasoline cars.

But EVs have a sinful side that cannot be ignored. Batteries.

Some of the most vocal anti-EV spokespersons say that mining the minerals and metals used in electric car batteries is much more damaging to the planet than drilling for the oil that fuels gasoline cars.

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Submitted Sep 08, 2010 By: BurntOrange

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urban_dweller Champion Author Orlando Posts:1,659 Points:65,420 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 9:22:47 PM Ignore urban_dweller Report Abuse "use all the fancy statement you want.." LOL, they're called facts, Metro. And it didn't go unnoticed that you failed to dispute even a single one of those facts.
MetroManiac Champion Author Rochester Posts:1,608 Points:220,530 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Sep 10, 2010 10:15:06 AM Ignore MetroManiac Report Abuse urban_dweller. we still do not have near the oil in our backyard that we need or consume, use all the fancy statement you want.. djgunrunner. batteries are recyclable.
djgunrunner Champion Author Salt Lake City Posts:7,583 Points:1,886,845 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: Sep 9, 2010 11:02:39 PM Ignore djgunrunner Report Abuse Electric car batteries will have a life time that will make the car obsolete fast. The value of an electric car will diminish to about 10 percent of the purchase price after 5 years. The batteries will cost about $10,000.00 to $11,000.00 and could need replacing as quick as 8 years. Then what do you do with the old batteries. I have heard that lithium ion batteries could be a safety hazard if they crack open and get wet. No guarantee on this but I would like a definite answer from someone who really knows and not a battery salesman. What will work for right now is Natural Gas. What the future is will probably be is Hydrogen. When Hydrogen comes out solid and the prices fall we will be using a non polluting fuel that is totally renewable do to the fact that Hydrogen is the most common element on earth. What is the government waiting for?
urban_dweller Champion Author Orlando Posts:1,659 Points:65,420 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Sep 9, 2010 10:52:14 PM Ignore urban_dweller Report Abuse MetroManiac: "urban_dweller. my statement stands.." I disagree, your statement doesn't "stand", it's fallen flat. 1) Oil is a fungible commodity openly traded on several markets around the world. Rare earths are not. 2) OPEC controls roughly 40 percent of oil produced, while China controls 97 percent. Big difference. 3) Canada is the largest supplier of oil to the US. No threat in the foreseeable future of any reluctance on Canada's part to continue providing that oil. China's intent is to cut off all exports. There are other differences between the rare earths commodities and oil, but the above should be enough to demonstrate the irrelevance of your statement.
MetroManiac Champion Author Rochester Posts:1,608 Points:220,530 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Sep 9, 2010 11:08:04 AM Ignore MetroManiac Report Abuse urban_dweller. my statement stands..
ENORMS Champion Author Colorado Posts:3,014 Points:1,171,335 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: Sep 9, 2010 5:02:48 AM Ignore ENORMS Report Abuse LI's are good batteries.
Kamakani Champion Author Hawaii Posts:2,387 Points:953,325 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Sep 9, 2010 2:41:59 AM Ignore Kamakani Report Abuse Good article
urban_dweller Champion Author Orlando Posts:1,659 Points:65,420 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Sep 9, 2010 1:11:02 AM Ignore urban_dweller Report Abuse fullauto posted: "rare earth metal - not in our backyard - watch prices" and MetroManiac replied: "fullauto, the quantity of oil we need is not in our backyard either." My congratulations, fullauto, yours was the first post in 3 pages that brought up the fact that several rare earths are required to manufacture the high-temp magnets that must be used in EV motors. Guess who produces over 97 percent of the world's rare earths, has drastically restricted the export of these rare earths for the 2nd half of 2010, and has announced a 100 percent BAN on exports by 2012? That's right, it's China. They intend to use their resource to produce EV's for their own populace. Any comment, MetroManiac?
DosEquis26 Champion Author Chicago Posts:3,758 Points:1,541,590 Joined:Jun 2006	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 10:42:58 PM Ignore DosEquis26 Report Abuse I was trying to forget the Hindenberg.Did we spell that right?
majjad Champion Author Dallas Posts:6,134 Points:1,306,545 Joined:Mar 2005	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 10:41:30 PM Ignore majjad Report Abuse Hydrogen can also blow you the hell up... Remrber the Hindenberg??? Go read that story again and then think about driving around with hydrogen... The probability of surviving an accident in an hydrogen powered vehicle is probably close to ZERO!!!
NekoSJG Champion Author San Jose Posts:3,225 Points:569,730 Joined:Jun 2010	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 10:04:38 PM Ignore NekoSJG Report Abuse Hydrogen is a pretty dilute energy source and it's good to hear EV's have something going for them.
coughlin Champion Author San Jose Posts:3,331 Points:754,075 Joined:Sep 2009	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 8:35:16 PM Ignore coughlin Report Abuse "The message from Switzerland is clear. Even when fueled by dirty sources, EVs with lithium-ion batteries have less environmental impact than their gasoline-powered counterparts."
pgerassi Champion Author Milwaukee Posts:8,511 Points:1,664,925 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 6:44:37 PM Ignore pgerassi Report Abuse SVMike, you are wrong! Hydrogen can be produced from any thermal source of 800C or more including concentrated solar or even nuclear power using the SI (Sulfur Iodine) process. Its conversion efficiency is over 60% while electric generators from NG rarely get that high. Sure you can use combined cycle which is a gas turbine with the waste heat in the exhaust boiling water into high pressure steam turning turbines connected to generators. However the same can be done with the gases from the SI process (hydrogen, oxygen and steam) upping its efficiency to 70% or so. When combined by LiFePO4s charge efficiency of 90% and distribution losses even NG combined cycle power gets below 50% overall (that is still much higher than the net 15-20% from an IC engine though). Thus conversion of water to hydrogen isn't as inefficient as you claimed unless you are thinking of the net efficiency in creating Liquid Hydrogen or very high pressure gas storage (>=700bar). The first can be boosted, by combining the fuel cell with a heat engine like a Stirling or turbine with the liquid hydrogen being the cold sink (helium would be a good gas in the loop) and the second can have the energy of compression recovered mostly by a turbine or multi-expansion piston engine. The reason for the battery in fuel cell cars is not for the long term energy storage or startup times because most PEM fuel cells are instant on and act like fully charged batteries with very slow leakage (the bigger the fuel source the longer for it to leak away). No its because of the low power of cheap fuel cells. They are great for long term sustained runs like the sustainer engine in the Chevy Volt EV. The batteries are there for their high peak power (10-30C is typical and only 1-2KWH is needed which is enough to accelerate the vehicle to over 100MPH or climb a steep grade and for their ability to store recovered kinetic energy during braking and long downgrades at the high rates typically encountered (100% of the kinetic energy of a 2 ton vehicle at 60MPH is 200WH (0.2KWH) during a typical 0.8g stop has a peak power of 416KW). Now SOFCs do take some time to warm up (operating temperatures are from 200-400C) and they are used typically when the hydrogen has sulfur impurities usually from NG burning steam reformers as they are immune to their debilitating effects. PEMs choke quickly on such impurities. Hydrogen from hydrolysis or thermal decomposition (even from the SI process) don't have sulfur impurities. SOFCs can be more efficient than PEM based FCs, if they are in an insulated container with a heat exchanger between intake air and steam outputs. The use of hydrogen and borax to make sodium borohydride is quite efficient and borax is cheap. It is a fairly good hydrogen storage material as 23% hydrogen is stored by weight and the energy density is 85% of gasoline. Given the high efficiency of PEM FCs, the net efficiency allows less volume to be used per 100 miles than an IC engine running gasoline. In fact PEM FCs can use sodium borohydride directly improving the efficiency from 52 to 55%. Its cousin, lithium borohydride although more expensive and more difficult to produce from lithium borohydroxide has 34% hydrogen by weight and 115% of the energy density of gasoline and the range usually will be 2-3 times that of a gasoline powered IC given the high efficiencies of PEM FCs. Although a direct conversion PEM FC has much less lifetime than the sodium one so indirect conversion is typical. Either way tankage is both smaller and far less likely to explode in an accident than a gasoline tank would be for a given range. The only unusual things are is that the water produced by the FC is injected into the SBH tank (or a reaction tank nearby) and that the borax is heavier than SBH making the vehicle heavier as the fuel is used up. But that is ok, because the waste borax is recovered (typically during fueling at the station) and sent back to the SBH plant completing the fuel cycle.
kkimes All-Star Author Illinois Posts:683 Points:1,092,465 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 4:48:52 PM Ignore kkimes Report Abuse First they make a statement and then they put a question mark at the end. What's up with that? I hate that kind of teaser in any form. It seems like all the newsletters I get are doing that now. Just quite it! Make a statement and if I want to read the background, I'll click on the link. Does asking a question instead of making a statement raise my blood pressure? News at 11.
SVmike Champion Author California Posts:1,426 Points:307,850 Joined:Dec 2009	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 1:10:29 PM Ignore SVmike Report Abuse dggunrunner: "Now take Hydrogen. You know the option that has the least support. No pollution. Can be produced on the site where it is sold. No transportation problem or pollution. Does not affect food prices. Totally renewable. More bang for the buck due to high octane. Does our country support it? Does our nations alleged leaders really want to cut pollution or do they just want to talk about it? " You've been fooled by the supposed cleanness of hydrogen. First, hydrogen fuel cars need batteries because they will operate like a hybrid. It takes a long time to warm up a fuel cell (several minutes) so you need the battery to provide energy for the first few minutes...or you can just sit in your car for 5 minutes wasting the fuel cell output while it ramps up. Second, hydrogen needs a lot of energy to produce it. It comes from natural gas in its cheapest form. Or via electrolysis where you only get back about 20% of the energy put in which makes it much more expensive (as a fuel) than an EV with batteries.
mmene Champion Author Houston Posts:4,347 Points:938,970 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 12:39:11 PM Ignore mmene Report Abuse These kinds of calculations are never simple and the article does not say exactly how they were made. When they say Lithium-Ion is better than gas they mean in terms of what? air pollution? land pollution? human labor? land use? For example it says that using hydrolectric energy for Li-Ion improves its number by 40%. Does that include the environmental impact of massive destruction of forest area that will occur from creation or reservoirs? Does it include the cost of human displacement such as has happened in the three gorges dam and loss of economic livelihood for all the displaced people? Never fall for simplistic arguments right away.
bullfrog69 Champion Author Texas Posts:1,421 Points:461,895 Joined:Nov 2009	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 12:08:27 PM Ignore bullfrog69 Report Abuse And cost a hell of a lot more also!
Cheepo Champion Author Tampa Posts:7,583 Points:2,671,740 Joined:Apr 2003	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 12:03:40 PM Ignore Cheepo Report Abuse No battery is better than gas!!!!!! It will pollute our landfills!
rippertoo Champion Author Tacoma Posts:3,406 Points:678,510 Joined:Jan 2010	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 12:03:04 PM Ignore rippertoo Report Abuse I'm not a huge fan of batteries, at least as we know them today, but compared to the problems with oil there is no contest.
justinoles Champion Author Orlando Posts:2,258 Points:552,285 Joined:Jul 2009	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 12:00:06 PM Ignore justinoles Report Abuse Actually the world leader in supply is in South America. Probably not much better than Russia or China...
humancry Champion Author Michigan Posts:3,269 Points:733,065 Joined:Nov 2006	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:52:37 AM Ignore humancry Report Abuse Well my views on this are to many i would get carpal tunnel just going through it.. So I'll go for the points on this one...
Tnerbeel Champion Author Houston Posts:6,350 Points:1,283,885 Joined:Mar 2007	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:51:44 AM Ignore Tnerbeel Report Abuse Well, at least we're not going backwards like with some of these greenie projects [i.e. Ethanol]
Hugo40 Champion Author Kentucky Posts:5,275 Points:1,151,450 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:50:50 AM Ignore Hugo40 Report Abuse There are other alternative sources of battery materials.
tml721 Champion Author Columbus Posts:10,025 Points:1,926,540 Joined:Jul 2005	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:48:31 AM Ignore tml721 Report Abuse RUSSIA has the world's supply of lithium!!
CatMan623 Champion Author Houston Posts:12,460 Points:1,881,655 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:47:20 AM Ignore CatMan623 Report Abuse ...and who is the world's dominant supplier of lithium?....China. Lovely.!!
grandpadon28110 Champion Author Charlotte Posts:2,384 Points:682,135 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:41:11 AM Ignore grandpadon28110 Report Abuse Lithium Batteries will need to be recycled and if we develop the fuel cell the repair parts will be much easier to replace and dispose.
BM4225 Champion Author Atlanta Posts:7,916 Points:1,666,485 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:41:01 AM Ignore BM4225 Report Abuse Ok, solar panel you house, store, or sell the electricity generated in the day time, then use it a night to charge the car, and run the home.
jcurley Champion Author California Posts:5,632 Points:1,320,595 Joined:Dec 2007	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:36:26 AM Ignore jcurley Report Abuse OHMS -- you'll have to go barefoot. Most shoes are manufactured in China, from petroleum products.
fire@53 Champion Author Philadelphia Posts:9,597 Points:2,327,425 Joined:May 2003	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:34:52 AM Ignore fire@53 Report Abuse It still takes some type of fuel to recharge the batteries.
OHMS Champion Author Orange County Posts:10,791 Points:1,249,445 Joined:May 2005	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:33:43 AM Ignore OHMS Report Abuse Walking is green; everything else is just different shades of gray.
jcurley Champion Author California Posts:5,632 Points:1,320,595 Joined:Dec 2007	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 11:29:54 AM Ignore jcurley Report Abuse I partially agree with djgunrunner - we also need to build up the Hydrogen Fuel Cell infrastructure and come up with green ways of producing it. I believe Lithium is part of the trillion dollars of minerals that have been discovered in Afghanistan. Think of replacing the batteries in an EV/Hybrid the same way you think of all of the parts of your current gas burning engine: oil changes, filters, battery, alternator, spark plugs, ignition system, and the engine and transmission. They all have to be rebuilt or replaced, eventually.
Bussman Champion Author Dallas Posts:3,857 Points:990,630 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 10:59:11 AM Ignore Bussman Report Abuse For the long run I agree with djgunrunner.
mfeldstein Champion Author Ottawa Posts:6,112 Points:1,522,585 Joined:Feb 2007	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 10:29:52 AM Ignore mfeldstein Report Abuse This is great news if the report is credible. The negative environmental effects of the production of batteries is yet to be proven.
eddmac Champion Author Washington Posts:5,526 Points:1,234,975 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 10:07:29 AM Ignore eddmac Report Abuse One con out of four!
gasaholicMO Champion Author Missouri Posts:2,416 Points:469,750 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 10:00:55 AM Ignore gasaholicMO Report Abuse Wesk8 is right, but we do need to factor in what we lose in mining. I think it is worth it, I'm sure others disagree. [Edited by: gasaholicMO at 9/8/2010 12:01:16 PM EST]
ScottTee Champion Author Detroit Posts:2,083 Points:601,200 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:45:04 AM Ignore ScottTee Report Abuse I would like to believe this... it is a very debatable topic
Wesk8 Champion Author Michigan Posts:1,968 Points:1,005,245 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:45:02 AM Ignore Wesk8 Report Abuse "YES, WHAT WE WILL DO WITH ALL THE USED UP BATTERIES???" Recycle them, just like we do now with lead-acid batteries. Lithium is not destroyed within the battery and is easilly recovered.
MetroManiac Champion Author Rochester Posts:1,608 Points:220,530 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:37:17 AM Ignore MetroManiac Report Abuse fullauto, the quantity of oil we need is not in our backyard either.
ChilePop All-Star Author Georgia Posts:666 Points:943,110 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:36:23 AM Ignore ChilePop Report Abuse Since Chile has 75% of the world's lithium reserves you may look for a change in the US foreign policy in South America. No more OPEC, our energy policy is going to be ruled by Chile.
fullauto Champion Author Reading Posts:3,302 Points:1,065,500 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:34:33 AM Ignore fullauto Report Abuse rare earth metal- not in our backyard- watch prices
peakkeller All-Star Author Colorado Springs Posts:676 Points:448,135 Joined:Dec 2009	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:32:39 AM Ignore peakkeller Report Abuse Really interesting article - thanks for posting.
esorsd Champion Author St. Louis Posts:3,493 Points:1,184,765 Joined:May 2005	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:32:13 AM Ignore esorsd Report Abuse Interesting article..........
Eichhornchen Champion Author Detroit Posts:3,772 Points:747,390 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:31:02 AM Ignore Eichhornchen Report Abuse What to do with the batteries?
Kato51 Champion Author Atlanta Posts:5,327 Points:1,770,375 Joined:Jul 2005	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:27:26 AM Ignore Kato51 Report Abuse Seems someone forget to bring this up in the past. What are we going to do with the batteries?
tobasco Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:6,743 Points:1,754,395 Joined:Mar 2004	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:27:14 AM Ignore tobasco Report Abuse Really?
djgunrunner Champion Author Salt Lake City Posts:7,583 Points:1,886,845 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:27:01 AM Ignore djgunrunner Report Abuse They continue to pour money hand over fist into Electric vehicles. They have no range. The batteries will cause the trade in value of the cars to go down because they will have to be replaced at what, 10 or 11 grand. This list can really go on for quite a while. Then you have to dispose of them. Now take Hydrogen. You know the option that has the least support. No pollution. Can be produced on the site where it is sold. No transportation problem or pollution. Does not affect food prices. Totally renewable. More bang for the buck due to high octane. Does our country support it? Does our nations alleged leaders really want to cut pollution or do they just want to talk about it?
us4usa Champion Author Missouri Posts:3,815 Points:679,250 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:25:47 AM Ignore us4usa Report Abuse So who owns the lithium mining companies?
Blazer197 Champion Author New Haven Posts:2,399 Points:457,325 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:24:36 AM Ignore Blazer197 Report Abuse Me no like.
DVGas Veteran Author Seattle Posts:315 Points:694,025 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:22:49 AM Ignore DVGas Report Abuse Just bury the batteries with the Nuclear waste...should produce a nice meltdown!
ifallsguy Champion Author Minnesota Posts:4,420 Points:1,212,705 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Sep 8, 2010 9:22:32 AM Ignore ifallsguy Report Abuse but lithium is a hazardous material